[css-inline-3] Should initial-letter apply to inside ::marker pseudos?

[fantasai]

We allow initial-letter to apply to the first inline-level box in a block container, should that include ::marker elements that are formatted as list-style-position: inside?

[frivoal]

@dauwhe do you have examples either way?

[css-meeting-bot]

The Working Group just discussed Should 'initial-letter' apply to 'list-style: inside' ::marker?, and agreed to the following:

• RESOLVED: initial-letter applies to inside markers

The full IRC log of that discussion

<fantasai> topic: Should 'initial-letter' apply to 'list-style: inside' ::marker?
<fantasai> github: https://github.com//issues/2705
<emilio> fantasai: we're not expecting this to happen immediately, but we want to make it apply since they should be laid out as any other inline
<emilio> fantasai: so proposal is 'yes, should apply'
<emilio> eae: we're not opposed to it but it's not something we can implement for a while, so as long as you're fine with that...
<emilio> dbaron: it doesn't feel different to whether initial-letter applies
<dbaron> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cstyle%3E%0A%0Aol%2C%20li%20%7B%20list-style-position%3A%20inside%20%7D%0Ali%3A%3Afirst-letter%20%7B%20color%3A%20green%3B%20background%3A%20yellow%20%7D%0A%0A%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0A%3Col%3E%0A%3Cli%3Ehello%0A%3Cli%3Etest%0A%3C%2Fol%3E
<emilio> dbaron: I'm seeing interop in the non-desirable behavior so far
<emilio> TabAtkins: we agree it should be the same, but our code for that is bad
<emilio> Rossen: in our case it already applies
<emilio> fantasai: really?
<emilio> Rossen: actually no
<emilio> dbaron: so far Gecko / Chrome / Edge all seem to support ::first-letter but they support it on the thing after the marker
<emilio> myles: why is putting it on the marker better?
<dbaron> ... and WebKit
<emilio> fantasai: cause it seems reasonable to style your markers / counters using initial-letter
<fantasai> esp for numbered / lettered lists
<emilio> TabAtkins: this is common on magazines, with list items being very big and such
<emilio> heycam: and if they go beyond nine?
<emilio> TabAtkins: they don't, but if they do 'ok, there's ten, and it's bigger'
<emilio> [others]: that's two letters then
<emilio> fantasai: we definitely allow multi-letter initial-letters
<emilio> fantasai: what is a letter is a very interesting question outside of latin
<emilio> fantasai: we allow it to apply to the first inline on a block
<emilio> frremy: is the marker position inline?
<emilio> fantasai: yes when list-style-position: inline
<emilio> dbaron: it seems reasonable, but I'm concerned because we seem to interop on first-letter
<emilio> fantasai: we don't really want to change how first-letter works
<emilio> fantasai: first-letter should keep doing what it's doing
<emilio> dbaron: ok, I guess I'm fine with that
<dbaron> s/to whether initial-letter applies/to whether ::first-letter applies/
<emilio> kochi: when the list marker is a bullet and includes punctuation, is the proposal to make initial-letter apply to the bullet and the next letter?
<emilio> fantasai: no, only for the first inline box, if it happens to be a marker good, same for ::before, etc
<skk> s/kochi/koji
<emilio> xidorn: so if there's an inside marker, initial-letter doesn't apply to anything afterwards, right?
<emilio> fantasai: yes
<emilio> Rossen: ok, so we're on the same page, are we ready to resolve then?
<emilio> Rossen: regardless of if/when it's implemented
<emilio> myles: so if you have a list and the first letter of the list is 'This', how do you style it?
<emilio> fantasai: either an outside marker and initial/first-letter, or an inside marker and first-letter
<emilio> Rossen: confirms ^
<emilio> florian: not sure if I misunderstood
<emilio> florian: but using initial-letter you cannot change the color of the marker, you'd need to use `::marker` for that
<emilio> Rossen: but in any case the first inline after the marker is targeted by ::first-letter
<emilio> everyone: yes
<emilio> myles: [confused]
<emilio> dauwhe: ??
<emilio> dbaron: so, to summarize: For list items, `::first-letter` ignores the marker
<dauwhe> s/??/webkit will apply an initial-letter with li::first-letter, which is troubling/
<emilio> dbaron: so the initial-letter property applies to `::first-letter` pseudos and to inlines at the beginning of block
<emilio> dbaron: so the spec doesn't have the exception for when `::first-letter` is not at the beginning of the block due to an inside marker
<emilio> dbaron: and we need to clarify that `initial-letter` doesn't apply there
<emilio> dbaron: maybe bidi can do that
<emilio> fantasai: we need to clarify that, but the spec already mentions that
<fantasai> “
<fantasai> If initial-letter is applied to an inline-level box that is not positioned at the start of the line due to bidi reordering or which is otherwise preceded by other inline-level content, its used value is normal, and it is not formatted as an initial letter.”
<emilio> s/that/bidi aboe
<emilio> *above
<emilio> dbaron: so, the other piece is that the bit about initial-letter can apply to an inline at the beginning of the block, but we need to clarify that it includes the inside marker
<emilio> florian: the piece fantasai quoted needs to also clarify that it also applies to `::first-letter`.
<emilio> Rossen: ok, now that we're on the same page, is there anything else?
<emilio> tantek: so the example the grammar mentions, it is an ordered list, so I was trying to make it work with the markers, but I could make that to work cross-browser at all, so if anyone is trying to define those interactions you should experiment with that today
<emilio> tantek: I had to use with list-style none
<emilio> fantasai: there's only one `initial-letter` impl so far and it's pretty buggy
<emilio> dauwhe: that's an understatement, but I'm still glad it's there
<tantek> s/grammar mentions/Dave Cramer mentions
<emilio> whoops
<emilio> Rossen: fantasai: so should we resolve then?
<emilio> Rossen: any objections?
<tantek> s/with the markers/with the markers with ol type=a
<emilio> RESOLVED: initial-letter applies to inside markers

[fantasai]

Fixed in ed91e7a