FLASH and W3C

**Philipp Lenssen** · Jul 20 '05, 03:42 PM

Re: FLASH and W3C

Manu wrote:
[color=blue]
>
> How can i do with a flash object for obtain the w3c label ?[/color]

Which W3C label?
If you want to get the WAI (Web Accessibility Initiative) approvement,
Flash won't do it. You need an HTML page for that.

If you want to get a "Valid HTML" badge, then I wonder why? Basic
accessibility is much more important than syntax validation.

For more information, go to Google Groups and enter
valid html w3c flash object embed

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=valid+html+w3c+flash+object+embed

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**Jim Ley** · Jul 20 '05, 03:42 PM

Re: FLASH and W3C

On 5 Sep 2003 14:47:39 GMT, "Philipp Lenssen" <info@outer-court.com>
wrote:
[color=blue]
>Manu wrote:[color=green]
>> How can i do with a flash object for obtain the w3c label ?[/color]
>
>If you want to get the WAI (Web Accessibility Initiative) approvement,
>Flash won't do it. You need an HTML page for that.[/color]

No you don't, you need to be accessible, it's about access to content,
not technologies.

Certainly with Flash that is relatively hard to achieve, especially in
reality, rather than theory, but it's no harder than with SVG, and a
lot easier than video and animated gifs.

Jim.
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**Philipp Lenssen** · Jul 20 '05, 03:42 PM

Re: FLASH and W3C

Jim Ley wrote:
[color=blue]
> On 5 Sep 2003 14:47:39 GMT, "Philipp Lenssen" <info@outer-court.com>
> wrote:
>[color=green]
> >Manu wrote:[color=darkred]
> >> How can i do with a flash object for obtain the w3c label ?[/color]
> >
> >If you want to get the WAI (Web Accessibility Initiative)[/color]
> approvement, >Flash won't do it. You need an HTML page for that.
>
> No you don't, you need to be accessible, it's about access to content,
> not technologies.
>[/color]

So how do you make "Hello World" accessible in Flash if you cannot use
HTML? How do you get it to work on braille, search engines,
text-to-speech, lynx, etc.? You might know more about Flash than I do.
[color=blue]
> Certainly with Flash that is relatively hard to achieve, especially in
> reality, rather than theory, but it's no harder than with SVG, and a
> lot easier than video and animated gifs.
>[/color]

Sure, Flash may be more accessible that a brick wall. If you compare it
with other inaccessible formats, it might rank good. Does that make it
any more accessible? In reality, I find e.g. SVG text easy to copy.
That was never easy in Flash. And in theory, SVG contains a lot more
accessibility features than Flash.

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**Manu** · Jul 20 '05, 03:42 PM

Re: FLASH and W3C

hum ok ok cool
but how conturn the "embed" tag for obtain w3c label

**Jim Ley** · Jul 20 '05, 03:42 PM

Re: FLASH and W3C

On 5 Sep 2003 15:01:26 GMT, "Philipp Lenssen" <info@outer-court.com>
wrote:
[color=blue]
>Jim Ley wrote:[color=green]
>> No you don't, you need to be accessible, it's about access to content,
>> not technologies.
>>[/color]
>
>So how do you make "Hello World" accessible in Flash if you cannot use
>HTML? How do you get it to work on braille, search engines,
>text-to-speech, lynx, etc.?[/color]

Flash has the ability to have text equivalents for all its content, if
your user agent is inable to access them, then that is a problem with
your (or the search engines etc.) user agent. If you can only use
HTML and no image content, how do you make your content accessible to
those with cognitive problems who can't understand the words.
Accessibility is not about a working with Lynx, lynx is an HTML user
agent. Certainly content on your site should be usefully accessible,
and this may currently mean HTML, but WCAG certainly does not
_require_ HTML.
[color=blue]
>Does that make it
>any more accessible? In reality, I find e.g. SVG text easy to copy.
>That was never easy in Flash. And in theory, SVG contains a lot more
>accessibilit y features than Flash.[/color]

Interesting, SVG has some huge holes in accessibility, which flash
don't suffer from (text being text in SVG is actually a problem, since
you can't control the order it appears if you also need to control the
z-index of the text.) Still SVG discussion is off-topic. Flash's
accessibility problems are around user agents, and author awareness of
how to author it accessibily.

Jim.
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**Philipp Lenssen** · Jul 20 '05, 03:42 PM

Re: FLASH and W3C

Jim Ley wrote:
[color=blue]
>
> Flash has the ability to have text equivalents for all its content, if
> your user agent is inable to access them, then that is a problem with
> your (or the search engines etc.) user agent. If you can only use
> HTML and no image content, how do you make your content accessible to
> those with cognitive problems who can't understand the words.
> Accessibility is not about a working with Lynx, lynx is an HTML user
> agent. Certainly content on your site should be usefully accessible,
> and this may currently mean HTML, but WCAG certainly does not
> _require_ HTML.[/color]

This all seems fairly theoretic. In practice, Flash is inaccessible. If
you got some samples of popular clients and Flash-files supporting your
described features (in the sense that I can find text on the page using
a short-cut, that I can copy text, that I can resize fonts, override
colors), let us know. Otherwise, this discussion is just not pragmatic.
(You could also say it's a human deficiency we can't go through brick
walls. I'd say a good architect won't put up a brick wall when there
should be an entrance.)
However, all those might be good arguments against SVG, if you
want.('Cause SVG accessibility is also highly depending on The Real
World.) I never argued SVG should be used instead. If anything, I argue
HTML should be used. And that's only if one cares about accessibility,
validation, the W3C, users, and so on.

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**Jim Ley** · Jul 20 '05, 03:42 PM

Re: FLASH and W3C

On 5 Sep 2003 15:51:15 GMT, "Philipp Lenssen" <info@outer-court.com>
wrote:
[color=blue]
>This all seems fairly theoretic. In practice, Flash is inaccessible.[/color]

No, In practice Flash is inaccessible to certain groups, and more
accessible than many to others, this is the nature of most content
types, certain groups find the content naturally accessible (depending
on their abilities etc.)
[color=blue]
>(in the sense that I can find text on the page using
>a short-cut, that I can copy text, that I can resize fonts, override
>colors), let us know.[/color]

Resizing is supported by all players that I know of, otherwise as you
note there's a user agent problem, however my point is not to defend
flash or say that it's brilliant, but to simply say that WCAG does not
require HTML, that's simply not true, it requires accessible to all
content.

Jim.
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**Tina Holmboe** · Jul 20 '05, 03:42 PM

Re: FLASH and W3C

jim@jibbering.c om (Jim Ley) exclaimed in <3f58a24b.18496 4314@news.cis.d fn.de>:
[color=blue][color=green]
>>If you want to get the WAI (Web Accessibility Initiative) approvement,
>>Flash won't do it. You need an HTML page for that.[/color]
>
> No you don't, you need to be accessible, it's about access to content,
> not technologies.[/color]

If you want to achieve WCAG, then Flash is out. 's as simple as that.
After all, if your UA doesn't have SVG support, then that's a problem
with the UA if I understood your point correctly.

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tina@greytower. net http://www.greytower.net/
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**Philipp Lenssen** · Jul 20 '05, 03:42 PM

Re: FLASH and W3C

Jim Ley wrote:
[color=blue]
>[color=green]
> >(in the sense that I can find text on the page using
> >a short-cut, that I can copy text, that I can resize fonts, override
> >colors), let us know.[/color]
>
> Resizing is supported by all players that I know of, otherwise as you
> note there's a user agent problem, however my point is not to defend
> flash or say that it's brilliant, but to simply say that WCAG does not
> require HTML, that's simply not true, it requires accessible to all
> content.
>[/color]

One point of the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines reads:

"Guideline 11. Use W3C technologies and guidelines."

Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 1.0

http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/

There you go: SVG according to the W3C is more accessible, because as
opposed to Flash, it's their technology. OK, I'm only half-serious
about this.

As for who's responsible, the W3C says:
"Checkpoint s that contain the phrase "until user agents ..." require
content developers to provide additional support for accessibility
until most user agents readily available to their audience include the
necessary accessibility features."

[color=blue]
> it requires accessible to all
> content.[/color]

OK, good point. So again would you care to show me a Flash which is in
accordance with W3C accessibility guidelines, or rather, common-sense
accessibility guidelines? Because I don't buy any "the world's not
ready for this technology yet" arguments, putting all blame on user
agent accessibility (and of course, they might be blamed as well).

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**Jim Ley** · Jul 20 '05, 03:42 PM

Re: FLASH and W3C

On 5 Sep 2003 16:27:55 GMT, "Philipp Lenssen" <info@outer-court.com>
wrote:
[color=blue]
>Jim Ley wrote:[color=green][color=darkred]
>>> it requires accessible to all[/color]
>> content.[/color]
>
>OK, good point. So again would you care to show me a Flash which is in
>accordance with W3C accessibility guidelines, or rather, common-sense
>accessibilit y guidelines?[/color]

Flash can be part of your content, the same as you can still use jpegs
even though they obviously aren't accessible to all (modulo the
including of metadata within them with XMP etc., but you get the idea)

Jim.
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**Jim Ley** · Jul 20 '05, 03:42 PM

Re: FLASH and W3C

On Fri, 05 Sep 2003 16:25:27 GMT, tina@greytower. net (Tina Holmboe)
wrote:
[color=blue]
>jim@jibbering. com (Jim Ley) exclaimed in <3f58a24b.18496 4314@news.cis.d fn.de>:
>[color=green][color=darkred]
>>>If you want to get the WAI (Web Accessibility Initiative) approvement,
>>>Flash won't do it. You need an HTML page for that.[/color]
>>
>> No you don't, you need to be accessible, it's about access to content,
>> not technologies.[/color]
>
> If you want to achieve WCAG, then Flash is out.[/color]

Could you cite something which says that? And why if flash is out,
aren't jpegs too, surely they are even less accessible!
[color=blue]
> After all, if your UA doesn't have SVG support, then that's a problem
> with the UA if I understood your point correctly.[/color]

Well not exactly as there are a large number of SVG situations which
you can't author in an accessible manner - I'm not even happy with
something as simple as the valid html 4.01 badge (I have to have the
text say "W3C HTML 4.01 Valid" which I think is confusing, when the
appropriate text would be "Valid W3C HTML 4.01", a minor point, but
that's just 1 sentance!)
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**Alexander Clauss** · Jul 20 '05, 03:42 PM

Re: FLASH and W3C

Manu <manu@cyklades. com> wrote:
[color=blue]
> How can i do with a flash object for obtain the w3c label ?
> the "embed" is not accepted ![/color]

If you want to support Netscape 4.x as well, you have to use use
embed, because the support for the object element is very limited
in this browser.
[color=blue]
> <object classid="clsid: D27CDB6E-AE6D-11cf-96B8-444553540000"[/color]

You should not (exclusively) use the classid attribute to select the
proprietary ActiveX-control because this is only working in Internet
Explorer under Windows (this is not working on other platforms
and maybe even under Windows it's not working in all browsers)

Instead let the browser find a suitable plugin or Active-X
control itself based on the "type" attribute:

<object data="Transfert/test0.swf"
type="applicati on/x-shockwave-flash"
width="100" height="100">
<param name="quality" value="high">
</object>

This should work with standards-compliant browsers which support
the object tag.

In case MSIE for windows doesn't like this, you can even combine
this with the proprietary "classid":

<object data="Transfert/test0.swf"
type="applicati on/x-shockwave-flash"
width="100" height="100">
<param name="quality" value="high">

<object classid="clsid: D27CDB6E-AE6D-11cf-96B8-444553540000"
codebase="http://download.macrom edia.com/..."
width="100" height="100">
<param name="movie" value="Transfer t/test0.swf">
<param name="quality" value="high">
</object>

</object>

--
Alexander

**Owen Jacobson** · Jul 20 '05, 03:42 PM

Re: FLASH and W3C

Manu wrote:
[color=blue]
> hum ok ok cool
> but how conturn the "embed" tag for obtain w3c label[/color]

<http://www.alistapart. com/stories/flashsatay/>

Isn't this in the FAQ somewhere?

**Zak McGregor** · Jul 20 '05, 03:43 PM

Re: FLASH and W3C

On Fri, 05 Sep 2003 16:51:03 +0200, Jim Ley <"Jim Ley"
<jim@jibbering. com>> wrote:
[color=blue]
> Certainly with Flash that is relatively hard to achieve, especially in
> reality, rather than theory, but it's no harder than with SVG[/color]

Nonsense. As SVG is a W3 supported effort and its development is open for
participation there is a huge difference in its accessibility. Software
licenses can be as large an impediment to viewing content as a physical
issue.

Ciao

Zak

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FLASH and W3C

FLASH and W3C

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