Ordered lists - numbering importance

[Stanimir Stamenkov]

So if the 'type' attribute of the OL element is deprecated and
authors should rely only on stylesheets how one could use a
reference (as clear text) in the content to a particular list element?

Suppose I have:

<ol type="1" id="main">
<li>baba</li>
<li>lele
<ol type="a" id="ext">
<li>muhu</li>
</ol>
</li>
</ol>
<p>
Some text here... (here I put) in conjunction with p. 2(a)... so on.</p>

The missing HTML functionality here is to reference an element from
a list (even an "unordered" list). Such references are very
important for various normative documents.

So I think there should be functionality to reference (either as a
hyper link and/or other means) an element from a list, may be
something like:

<a href="#ext&1">p . 2(a)</a>

But preferably there should be a way to include the actual generated
"number" for a given list item in some place in the document content:

<p>
.... according to point <LREF for="ext" num="1">2(a)</LREF>, na-na...</p>

Where the content of the LREF element would be used as alternative
where UAs doesn't support this functionality.

Are there other opinions on the matter?

--
Stanimir

[Martin Honnen]

Re: Ordered lists - numbering importance



Stanimir Stamenkov wrote:
[color=blue]
> So if the 'type' attribute of the OL element is deprecated and authors
> should rely only on stylesheets how one could use a reference (as clear
> text) in the content to a particular list element?
>
> Suppose I have:
>
> <ol type="1" id="main">
> <li>baba</li>
> <li>lele
> <ol type="a" id="ext">
> <li>muhu</li>
> </ol>
> </li>
> </ol>
> <p>
> Some text here... (here I put) in conjunction with p. 2(a)... so on.</p>
>
> The missing HTML functionality here is to reference an element from a
> list (even an "unordered" list). Such references are very important for
> various normative documents.
>
> So I think there should be functionality to reference (either as a hyper
> link and/or other means) an element from a list, may be something like:
>
> <a href="#ext&1">p . 2(a)</a>[/color]

XPointer with the element scheme can do that

http://www.w3.org/TR/xptr-element/

I think it should look like
<a href="#element( ext/1)">
Mozilla 1.4/Netscape 7.1 should support that but I think only for
documents with content type text/xml.



--

Martin Honnen

http://JavaScript.FAQTs.com/

[Stanimir Stamenkov]

Re: Ordered lists - numbering importance

Martin Honnen wrote:
[color=blue]
> XPointer with the element scheme can do that
> http://www.w3.org/TR/xptr-element/
> I think it should look like
> <a href="#element( ext/1)">
> Mozilla 1.4/Netscape 7.1 should support that but I think only for
> documents with content type text/xml.[/color]

Sorry for my ignorance, I'm not familiar with the XPointer
specification - do you know if it could be used to insert textual
content as identification, like the case with different type
"numbering" of HTML ordered lists, to such elements?

--
Stanimir

[Martin Honnen]

Re: Ordered lists - numbering importance



Stanimir Stamenkov wrote:
[color=blue]
> Martin Honnen wrote:
>[color=green]
>> XPointer with the element scheme can do that
>> http://www.w3.org/TR/xptr-element/
>> I think it should look like
>> <a href="#element( ext/1)">
>> Mozilla 1.4/Netscape 7.1 should support that but I think only for
>> documents with content type text/xml.[/color]
>
>
> Sorry for my ignorance, I'm not familiar with the XPointer specification
> - do you know if it could be used to insert textual content as
> identification, like the case with different type "numbering" of HTML
> ordered lists, to such elements?[/color]

Xpointer is not meant to insert content, it is a way to point to a
particular part of an XML document. I mentioned it because you seemed to
be looking for a way to do that with your example
<a href="#ext&1">

--

Martin Honnen

http://JavaScript.FAQTs.com/

[Jukka K. Korpela]

Re: Ordered lists - numbering importance

Stanimir Stamenkov <s7an10@netscap e.net> wrote:
[color=blue]
> So if the 'type' attribute of the OL element is deprecated and
> authors should rely only on stylesheets how one could use a
> reference (as clear text) in the content to a particular list element?[/color]

If the numbering is essential for the content, then you should not rely on
CSS, HTML, or a combination of them in doing the numbering for you but make
the numbers part of actual content.
[color=blue]
> <ol type="1" id="main">
> <li>baba</li>
> <li>lele
> <ol type="a" id="ext">
> <li>muhu</li>
> </ol>
> </li>
> </ol>
> <p>
> Some text here... (here I put) in conjunction with p. 2(a)... so on.</p>
>
> The missing HTML functionality here is to reference an element from
> a list (even an "unordered" list). Such references are very
> important for various normative documents.[/color]

You can create a link to "muhu" by using href="#p2a", if you use the markup
<li id="p2a">muhu</li>
or the older alternative that works a little more widely:
<li><a name="p2a">muhu </a></li>
[color=blue]
> So I think there should be functionality to reference (either as a
> hyper link and/or other means) an element from a list, may be
> something like:
>
> <a href="#ext&1">p . 2(a)</a>[/color]

Well, there isn't but you can use a normal link if you set up a normal
anchor. Whether "p. 2(a)" (or slightly better "p&amp;2(a) ") makes a good
link text is debatable. In any case, if "2(a)" is essential, I suggest that
you use <ul> markup with list-style-type: none and make the numbering part
of the items:
<li><a name="p2a">2(a) </a> muhu</li>

Note that neither HTML nor CSS (as currently supported) does not generate a
number like "2(a)" for you. You can get "2." or "a." or a few other
alternatives, but nothing hierarchic.

--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html

[Stanimir Stamenkov]

Re: Ordered lists - numbering importance

Martin Honnen wrote:
[color=blue]
> Stanimir Stamenkov wrote:
>[color=green]
>> Sorry for my ignorance, I'm not familiar with the XPointer
>> specification - do you know if it could be used to insert textual
>> content as identification, like the case with different type
>> "numbering" of HTML ordered lists, to such elements?[/color]
>
> Xpointer is not meant to insert content, it is a way to point to a
> particular part of an XML document. I mentioned it because you seemed to
> be looking for a way to do that with your example
> <a href="#ext&1">[/color]

Yes, actually I'm looking for a functionality to specify a reference
which is not necessary a link in the standard hyper text means (it
could be used as hyper link however) and actually not to insert
(textual or any other type of) content but to generate, to have
appropriate rendering for a given media (visual, arual, etc.)...
after I've tought for awhile. Here's an imaginary example:

<ol id="rules">
<li>...</li>
<li>...</li>
<li>...</li>
</ol>
...
<p>
bla-bla... the <ref for="rules" num="2">[alt-content]</ref> means...
</p>

So with CSS I could specify generated "numbers" (for visual
representation) for the "rules" list items and for the <ref>
elements which attribute 'for' is "rules" to display (replace the
"alt-content" with) corresponding "number" using the content of the
attribute 'num'. Aural UAs could render it with whatever other means
are more appropriate to specify this reference (and probably could
ignore the 'alt' textual content).

May be a standard link would suffice:

<a href="#element( rules/2)">the second rule</a>

but then I don't know how one could achieve the visual
representation I'm aiming, using CSS (one would need to parse the
'href' attribute value to extract the element number).

--
Stanimir

[Stanimir Stamenkov]

Re: Ordered lists - numbering importance

Jukka K. Korpela wrote:[color=blue]
> Stanimir Stamenkov <s7an10@netscap e.net> wrote:
>[color=green]
>> So if the 'type' attribute of the OL element is deprecated and
>> authors should rely only on stylesheets how one could use a
>> reference (as clear text) in the content to a particular list element?[/color]
>
> If the numbering is essential for the content, then you should not rely on
> CSS, HTML, or a combination of them in doing the numbering for you but make
> the numbers part of actual content.[/color]

I want to rely on defined HTML functionality only... and I'm
discussing a functionality not currently defined, which I think is
essential for the HTML usability. You may see my last reply to
Martin Honnen in this thread.
[color=blue]
> I suggest that
> you use <ul> markup with list-style-type: none and make the numbering part
> of the items:
> <li><a name="p2a">2(a) </a> muhu</li>[/color]

You know, I've though of that... the best solution for the moment.
[color=blue]
> Note that neither HTML nor CSS (as currently supported) does not generate a
> number like "2(a)" for you. You can get "2." or "a." or a few other
> alternatives, but nothing hierarchic.[/color]

Yes, I think there are no limits to extend and impove CSS. :-)

--
Stanimir