Validating my pages

**Anne van Kesteren** · Jul 20 '05, 04:48 PM

Re: Validating my pages

Akseli Mäki wrote:[color=blue]
> I'm trying to see how valid my code is. The validated complained with
> following:
> Line 12, column 32: there is no attribute "TARGET" (explain...).
> <FRAME NAME="MAINMENU2 " TARGET="_top" SRC="main%20men u.html"
> SCROLLING="AUTO " M
>
> However my copy of Html 4.01 specification says that the attribute exists.
> What's wrong? The original code is at <http://akseli-yok.utu.fi:993> .[/color]
Where did you see it:
<http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/present/frames.html#h-16.2.2> ?

What you can do is place a <base/> tag in your "main menu.html" (it is
more save not to use spaces in file name, like "main-menu.html") like this:

<head>

<base target="_top">
</head>

--
Anne van Kesteren
<http://www.annevankest eren.nl/>

**Akseli Mäki** · Jul 20 '05, 04:48 PM

Re: Validating my pages

Anne van Kesteren wrote:
[color=blue]
>Where did you see it:
><http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/present/frames.html#h-16.2.2> ?[/color]
I was looking at the list of attributes. I didn't notice that the attribute
wasn't declared for FRAMES tag.
[color=blue]
>What you can do is place a <base/> tag in your "main menu.html" (it is
>more save not to use spaces in file name, like "main-menu.html") like this:[/color]
I know this tag, but it turns out the attribute has no use on the place
where I was using, it was superficial.

**Tim** · Jul 20 '05, 04:48 PM

Re: Validating my pages

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 12:05:52 +0200,
Akseli Mäki <akseli.nospami nhererightnow@n ic.fi> wrote:
[color=blue]
> I'm trying to see how valid my code is. The validated complained with
> following:
> Line 12, column 32: there is no attribute "TARGET" (explain...).
> <FRAME NAME="MAINMENU2 " TARGET="_top" SRC="main%20men u.html"
> SCROLLING="AUTO " M
>
> However my copy of Html 4.01 specification says that the attribute exists.
> What's wrong? The original code is at <http://akseli-yok.utu.fi:993> .[/color]

The "target" attribute isn't usable within a frame element, remove it.

If you've put that there to try and stop anybody else from putting your
site within a frame, that's not the way to go about it. If you've put
it there for any other reason, you've got the wrong idea.

You've tried giving each frame element a target="_top" attribute, which
would mean, if a browser paid any attention to it, that it'd be trying
to load each frame directly into a browser window (outside of a
frameset). That's not possible (both into the same spot, and both being
visible).

Additionally, blank spaces are forbidden in URIs, encoding them as %20
is a hack to try and get around a requirement. It is permitted to
include blank spaces with parameters sent *after* a URI (e.g. search
strings), though.

e.g. http://www.example.com/cgi-bin/searc...thing%20spacey

--
My "from" address is totally fake. (Hint: If I wanted e-mails from
complete strangers, I'd have put a real one, there.) Reply to usenet
postings in the same place as you read the message you're replying to.

**Akseli Mäki** · Jul 20 '05, 04:48 PM

Re: Validating my pages

Tim wrote:
[color=blue]
>If you've put that there to try and stop anybody else from putting your
>site within a frame, that's not the way to go about it. If you've put
>it there for any other reason, you've got the wrong idea.[/color]
I put it there because I copied the frameset page from someone else who had
it done so. But it seems to have had no effect, when I removed it the pages
looked just the same.
[color=blue]
>Additionally , blank spaces are forbidden in URIs, encoding them as %20
>is a hack to try and get around a requirement. It is permitted to
>include blank spaces with parameters sent *after* a URI (e.g. search
>strings), though.[/color]
Are there any browsers where my "workaround " doesn't work?

**Jukka K. Korpela** · Jul 20 '05, 04:49 PM

Re: Validating my pages

Akseli Mäki <akseli.nospami nhererightnow@n ic.fi> wrote:
[color=blue][color=green]
>>Additionall y, blank spaces are forbidden in URIs, encoding them as %20
>>is a hack to try and get around a requirement. It is permitted to
>>include blank spaces with parameters sent *after* a URI (e.g. search
>>strings), though.[/color]
> Are there any browsers where my "workaround " doesn't work?[/color]

It is generally best to do things right, rather than to try to find
"workaround s".

In this case, though, the comment was wrong: spaces are certainly allowed in
URIs when encoded as %20. (See RFC 2396, which is the current authoritative
specification on generic URI syntax.)

On the other hand, the mere fact that URIs may become visible to users and
may be typed in by users (even though they would need to make their way
through the obstacles that frames create) makes it a good _practical_ advice
to avoid spaces in URIs. Surely the author's convenience in working with his
files on his system is less relevant that all users' convenience with URIs.

--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html

**Akseli Mäki** · Jul 20 '05, 04:49 PM

Re: Validating my pages

Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
[color=blue]
>On the other hand, the mere fact that URIs may become visible to users and
>may be typed in by users (even though they would need to make their way
>through the obstacles that frames create) makes it a good _practical_ advice
>to avoid spaces in URIs. Surely the author's convenience in working with his
>files on his system is less relevant that all users' convenience with URIs.[/color]
I guess it won't hurt me to convert spaces to "-". I suppose it also
applies to directory names. As for frames, I've been thinkin about turning
the site free of frames but what alternatives are there to have a similiar
layout? Examples from other website would be great. Also is there a way to
implement page http://akseli-yok.utu.fi:993/vgap/hostorder/index.html
without frames so that it's functionality won't change a bit. The page
*needs* to have a lefthand menu which is scrollable.

**Akseli Mäki** · Jul 20 '05, 04:49 PM

Re: Validating my pages

Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
[color=blue]
>On the other hand, the mere fact that URIs may become visible to users and
>may be typed in by users (even though they would need to make their way
>through the obstacles that frames create) makes it a good _practical_ advice
>to avoid spaces in URIs. Surely the author's convenience in working with his
>files on his system is less relevant that all users' convenience with URIs.[/color]
I guess it won't hurt me to convert spaces to "-". I suppose it also
applies to directory names. As for frames, I've been thinkin about turning
the site free of frames but what alternatives are there to have a similiar
layout? Examples from other website would be great. Also is there a way to
implement page http://akseli-yok.utu.fi:993/vgap/hostorder/index.html
without frames so that it's functionality won't change a bit. The page
*needs* to have a lefthand menu which is scrollable. Also note that I'm
writing my pages with Notepad, so implementing fancy tables would be not so
easy. I want to write simple HTML only.

**Jukka K. Korpela** · Jul 20 '05, 04:49 PM

Re: Validating my pages

Akseli Mäki <akseli.nospami nhererightnow@n ic.fi> wrote:
[color=blue]
> I guess it won't hurt me to convert spaces to "-".[/color]

It's an improvement, but a bit risky - one day someone is going to include
the URI into a printed document, and then programs may treat the hyphen as
an allowed line break point, and readers won't know whether the hyphen is
part of the URL or not. The underline character "_" is probably safer, if
allowed in the file system of the server.
[color=blue]
> As for frames, I've been thinkin about
> turning the site free of frames but what alternatives are there to have
> a similiar layout?[/color]

Usually attempts to avoid frames lead to even worse problems, if the author
insists on preserving the _idea_ of stealing a considerable part of the
canvas width for some links that "must" be visible at any time at any cost.
But surely there are reasonable ways to implement such a layout, too; for a
sketchy example see http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/styles/layout.html
[color=blue]
> Also is
> there a way to implement page
> http://akseli-yok.utu.fi:993/vgap/hostorder/index.html without frames so
> that it's functionality won't change a bit.[/color]

It's the "functional ity" that is the problem here.
[color=blue]
> The page *needs* to have a
> lefthand menu which is scrollable.[/color]

Then it *needs* to be something else than an HTML page designed for the
World Wide Web. To begin with, "left" and "right" exist in visual
presentation only.
[color=blue]
> Also note that I'm writing my pages
> with Notepad, so implementing fancy tables would be not so easy. I want
> to write simple HTML only.[/color]

Then by all means write simple HTML. Write a page that contains a list of
links. Make each link refer to a separate page, or part of a page, and make
sure all those subpages contain a link to the index (the list). Problem
solved.

--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html

**Akseli Mäki** · Jul 20 '05, 04:49 PM

Re: Validating my pages

Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
[color=blue]
>The underline character "_" is probably safer, if
>allowed in the file system of the server.[/color]
OK then. Might there be any problems in using underline?
[color=blue]
>Usually attempts to avoid frames lead to even worse problems, if the author
>insists on preserving the _idea_ of stealing a considerable part of the
>canvas width for some links that "must" be visible at any time at any cost.[/color]
They probably don't need to be visible all the time, I think putting the
links on the main page will suffice. Something like
<http://akseli-yok.utu.fi:993/foo.html>. How does that look? What do you
think about the layout of these pages
<http://www.inf.tu-dresden.de/~sr21/vgapage.html>. I think that is the kind
of layout I'd use. Then on the subpages I would first include all the links
inside the page on top, and after each paragraph I would have a link to the
top of the page, like <http://akseli-yok.utu.fi:993/bar.html>.

Btw, on a page named bar.html, is <A HREF="bar.html# preface">Top</A> same
thing as <A HREF="#preface" >Top</A>. I recall the later was valid HTML, but
can't remember for sure.
[color=blue]
>But surely there are reasonable ways to implement such a layout, too; for a
>sketchy example see http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/styles/layout.html[/color]
I dislike CSS. I'm not going to learn that just because W3 came up with
that fancy idea.
[color=blue][color=green]
>> Also is
>> there a way to implement page
>> http://akseli-yok.utu.fi:993/vgap/hostorder/index.html without frames so
>> that it's functionality won't change a bit.[/color]
>It's the "functional ity" that is the problem here.[/color]
Why is that a problem?
[color=blue]
>Then it *needs* to be something else than an HTML page designed for the
>World Wide Web. To begin with, "left" and "right" exist in visual
>presentation only.[/color]
Is that the best argument you could come up with? I don't care if it's left
or right. The page will always have a visual presentation. The page doesn't
have to render to speech browser. The page would be less useful if it
didn't contain the menu. The page easier to use when the menu is visible
all the time. The order of the links in the menu is very important.
[color=blue]
>Then by all means write simple HTML. Write a page that contains a list of
>links. Make each link refer to a separate page, or part of a page, and make
>sure all those subpages contain a link to the index (the list). Problem
>solved.[/color]
That would be less useful to the reader. The information should be easy to
browse, with that kind of system the reader would have to visit the link
page all the time. I could make the no-frames version like that, but I
doubt many people would use it. No one has ever asked better pages for
browsers that don't support frames. I've tested the pages with Lynx and
worked fine there.

**Beauregard T. Shagnasty** · Jul 20 '05, 04:49 PM

Re: Validating my pages

Quoth the raven named Akseli Mäki:
[color=blue]
> Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
>[color=green]
>>The underline character "_" is probably safer, if
>>allowed in the file system of the server.[/color]
>
> OK then. Might there be any problems in using underline?[/color]

Why not simply remove the spaces altogether? The filename
"mainmenu.h tml" is quite easily understood, both by the server and the
human eye.

I'd recommend always using lowercase as well.

--
-bts
-This space intentionally left blank.

**Joel Shepherd** · Jul 20 '05, 04:49 PM

Re: Validating my pages

Akseli Mäki wrote:[color=blue]
>
> The page will always have a visual presentation.[/color]

The bit about the typing pigeons was just a joke, you know.
[color=blue]
> The page doesn't have to render to speech browser.[/color]

Maybe for you it doesn't. How can you say that authoritatively about
those who may visit it?

--
Joel.

**Jukka K. Korpela** · Jul 20 '05, 04:49 PM

Re: Validating my pages

Akseli Mäki <akseli.nospami nhererightnow@n ic.fi> wrote:
[color=blue][color=green]
>>Then it *needs* to be something else than an HTML page designed for the
>>World Wide Web. To begin with, "left" and "right" exist in visual
>>presentatio n only.[/color]
> Is that the best argument you could come up with?[/color]

It wasn't an argument, just a statement of fact.

You have the liberty of ignoring the facts, or anything you like. But since
you expressly say that you are not interested in authoring for the WWW, it
is best to refrain from commenting on your messages here any more.
[color=blue]
> No one has ever asked better pages for browsers that don't support frames.[/color]

I think I know why nobody ever asked you that.

Please keep using your forged From field until you have a clue.

--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html

**Akseli Mäki** · Jul 20 '05, 04:49 PM

Re: Validating my pages

Joel Shepherd wrote:
[color=blue]
>The bit about the typing pigeons was just a joke, you know.[/color]
Huh? What part?
[color=blue][color=green]
> > The page doesn't have to render to speech browser.[/color]
>Maybe for you it doesn't. How can you say that authoritatively about
>those who may visit it?[/color]
Well, it's my site:) Granted, there might be one person in whole world who
might try to access it with a speech browser. I don't try to make a site
that won't render with such, but I probably won't invent much time to make
it work, either.

**Akseli Mäki** · Jul 20 '05, 04:49 PM

Re: Validating my pages

Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
[color=blue]
>I'd recommend always using lowercase as well.[/color]
I have do so, except the images are as they are.

Validating my pages

Validating my pages

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